And that's all I present it as, is wonderfully attractive and maybe even sexy circumstantial evidence for the potential use of a psychedelic sacrament amongst the earliest Christians. Where are the drugs? So let's talk about the future of religion, and specifically the future of Roman Catholicism. And so with a revised ancient history, in place Brian tacks back to the title of our series, Psychedelics and the Future of Religion. And much of the evidence that you've collected is kind of the northern half of the Mediterranean world. A lot of Christianity, as you rightly point out, I mean, it was an Eastern phenomenon, all over the eastern Mediterranean. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. The kind of mysticism I've always been attracted to, like the rule of Saint Benedict and the Trappist monks and the Cistercian monks. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. Dogs, indicative of the Greek goddess Hecate, who, amongst other things was known as the [GREEK], the dog eater. CHARLES STANG: Wonderful. So there's a whole slew of sites I want to test there. And part of me really wants to put all these pieces together before I dive in. Not in every single case, obviously. The Gnostics did have continuity with paganism. I mean, what-- my big question is, what can we say about the Eucharist-- and maybe it's just my weird lens, but what can we say about it definitively in the absence of the archaeochemstry or the archaeobotany? It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. That's how we get to Catalonia. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving Now you're a good sport, Brian. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. And considering the common background of modern religions (the Pagan Continuity hypothesis), any religious group who thinks they are chosen or correct are promoting a simplistic and ignorant view of our past. 8 "The winds, the sea . You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Peloton Row premium rower for an efficient workout, and You Need A Budget cult-favorite money management app.. Rick Rubin is a nine-time GRAMMY-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the most successful producer in any genre, according to Rolling Stone. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm bringing more illumination. I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. And the reason I find that a worthy avenue of pursuit is because when you take a step back and look at the Greek of the Gospels, especially the Greek of John, which is super weird, what I see based on Dennis MacDonald's scholarship that you mentioned-- and others-- when you do the exegesis of John's gospel, there's just lots of vocabulary and lots of imagery that doesn't appear elsewhere. Now is there any evidence for psychedelic use in ancient Egypt, and if not, do you have any theory as to why that's silent? But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. And I offer psychedelics as one of those archaic techniques of ecstasy that seems to have been relevant and meaningful to our ancestors. The question is, what will happen in the future. Brian is the author of a remarkable new book that has garnered a lot of attention and has sold a great many copies. But maybe you could just say something about this community in Catalonia. Because for many, many years, you know, Ruck's career takes a bit of a nosedive. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. And how do we-- when the pharmaceutical industry and when these retreat centers begin to open and begin to proliferate, how do we make this sacred? The continuity theory proposes that older adults maintain the same activities, behaviors, personalities, and relationships of the past. . The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More (#646) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss 3 Annual "Best of" Apple Podcasts 900+ Million episodes downloaded CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. That is about the future rather than the ancient history. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. Where does Western civilization come from? CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. And what it has to do with Eleusis or the Greek presence in general, I mean, again, just to say it briefly, is that this was a farmhouse of sorts that was inland, this sanctuary site. This is all secret. Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. It tested positive for the microscopic remains of beer and also ergot, exactly the hypothesis that had been put forward in 1978 by the disgraced professor across town from you, Carl Ruck, who's now 85 years old, by the way. All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. But I want to ask you to reflect on the broader narrative that you're painting, because I've heard you speak in two ways about the significance of this work. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. To assess this hypothesis and, perhaps, to push it further, has required years of dogged and, at times, discouraging works in archives and archaeology. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. Tim Ferriss Show #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More. So if you were a mystic and you were into Demeter and Persephone and Dionysus and you were into these strange Greek mystery cults, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better place to spend your time than [SPEAKING GREEK], southern Italy, which in some cases was more Greek than Greek. He was wronged by individuals, allegedly. Then what was the Gospel of John, how did it interpret the Eucharist and market it, and so on. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . What the Greeks were actually saying there is that it was barley infected with ergot, which is this natural fungus that infects cereal crops. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. And that's what I get into in detail in the book. So how exactly is this evidence of something relevant to Christianity in Rome or southern Italy more widely? I mean, shouldn't everybody, shouldn't every Christian be wondering what kind of wine was on that table, or the tables of the earliest Christians? In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. So to find dog sacrifice inside this Greek sanctuary alludes to this proto-witch, Hecate, the mother of Circe, who is mentioned in the same hymn to Demeter from the 8th, 7th century BC, as kind of the third of the goddesses to whom these mysteries were dedicated. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. BRIAN MURARESKU: We can dip from both pies, Dr. Stang. So your presentation of early Christianity inclines heavily toward the Greek world. So Brian, I wonder, maybe we should give the floor to you and ask you to speak about, what are the questions you think both ancient historians such as myself should be asking that we're not, and maybe what are the sorts of questions that people who aren't ancient historians but who are drawn to this evidence, to your narrative, and to the present and the future of religion, what sort of questions should they be asking regarding psychedelics? What is it about that formula that captures for you the wisdom, the insight that is on offer in this ancient ritual, psychedelic or otherwise? There he is. And they found this site, along with others around the Mediterranean. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. I'm going to stop asking my questions, although I have a million more, as you well know, and instead try to ventriloquist the questions that are coming through at quite a clip through the Q&A. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. The Immortality Key, The Secret History of the Religion With No Name. I mean, something of symbolic significance, something monumental. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . So that, actually, is the key to the immortality key. Brought to you by You want to field questions in both those categories? Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? And I think there are so many sites and excavations and so many chalices that remain to be tested. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. But it survives. A rebirth into what? But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. I took this to Greg [? And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. We still have almost 700 with us. I appreciate this. And so even within the New Testament you see little hints and clues that there was no such thing as only ordinary table wine. And shouldn't we all be asking that question? I try to be careful to always land on a lawyer's feet and be very honest with you and everybody else about where this goes from here. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More from The Tim Ferriss Show on Podchaser, aired Wednesday, 28th December 2022. We call it ego dissolution, things of that nature. I mean, so it was Greek. I'm not sure where it falls. And you're right. But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. Others find it in different ways, but the common denominator seems to be one of these really well-curated near-death experiences. [1] According to this theory, older adults try to maintain this continuity of lifestyle by adapting strategies that are connected to their past experiences. No, I think you-- this is why we're friends, Charlie. So I spent 12 years looking for that data, eventually found it, of all places, in Catalonia in Spain in this 635-page monograph that was published in 2002 and for one reason or another-- probably because it was written in Catalan-- was not widely reported to the academic community and went largely ignored. And when I started to get closer into the historical period-- this is all prehistory. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? [2] Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 This event is entitled, Psychedelics, The Ancient Religion With No Name? BRIAN MURARESKU: But you're spot on. And I want to ask you about specifically the Eleusinian mysteries, centered around the goddesses Demeter and Persephone. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? All rights reserved. And let's start with our earliest evidence from the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. I really tried. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. And so I cite a Pew poll, for example, that says something like 69% of American Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, which is the defining dogma of the church, the idea that the bread and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood. And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. And there you also found mortars that were tested and also tested positive for evidence of brewing. Like, what is this all about? I imagine there are many more potion makers around than we typically recognize. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More Brought to you by GiveWell.org charity research and effective giving and 5-Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. Did the ancient Greeks use drugs to find God? And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. CHARLES STANG: OK. And that's a question equally for ancient historians and for contemporary seekers and/or good Catholics. Listen to #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More, an episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. I'm paraphrasing this one. The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. The altar had been sitting in a museum in Israel since the 1960s and just hadn't been tested. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. We look forward to hosting Chacruna's founder and executive director, Bia Labate, for a lecture on Monday, March 8. So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. Research inside the Church of Saint Faustina and Liberata Fig 1. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. An actual spiked wine. What does that have to do with Christianity? I mean, the honest answer is not much. And it seems to me that if any of this is right, that whatever was happening in ancient Greece was a transformative experience for which a lot of thought and preparation went into. It was a pilgrimage site. CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. And you find terracotta heads that could or could not be representative of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses to whom the mysteries of Eleusis were dedicated. But even if they're telling the truth about this, even if it is accurate about Marcus that he used a love potion, a love potion isn't a Eucharist. Like in Israel. Thank you, sir. Pagan polemicists reversed the Biblical story of the Israelites' liberation from Egyptian bondage, portraying a negative image of Israelite origins and picturing them as misanthropes and atheists. All that will be announced through our mailing list. This time, tonight I'll say that it's just not my time yet.