Look a fanboy. That focus drifts. Holding the striker fully cocked with nothing to block it if the sear fails is questionable at best. But SIG Sauer said it has rectified the issue with upgrades, including one made for the U.S. military which court documents, filed as part of one of the lawsuits, show resulted in substantial changes to the weapons internal design. Their visceral hatred for that which they see as competition to their little golden calf god and their blind, myopic, childish self-identification with an external dynamic is hilarious! But now, P320 is the subject. Was it his fault? And they would not have done that for no reason at all. UPDATE:We were just made aware of YouTuber BoomStick Tactical who produced this video the day before our post published. I dont consider the drop-bang issue a failure and Sigs response was actually above any real need, except to perhaps deflect any easy wins for slime ambulance chasers I get that. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Two, the plunger may have a propensity to remain partially raised, or staged, instead of returning fully to its secure position, lessening the energy necessary to move it and thus allowing less effort to do so. You couldnt ask questions. Police Department, was wounded when his P320 duty gun discharged without a trigger pull while he was carrying it in a gym bag wrapped carefully with a cloth. Officer Collette was wounded in his left leg. Nope. No Warp core, just a quantum singularity, The engine was basically a dorm fridge. Then after just three years without telling anyone they stopped all production including extra parts. As far as ships go, Im drawn to the original movie vessels because they look the most, to me, like something youd really see humans build in space in 300 years. He takes your wallet and car and leaves the SIG. ! only reveals ones immature emotional attachment to an inanimate object, which reveals a pretty childish worldview. But I hope Sig fights it until the bitterest of ends. Ron Cohen ruined Kimber and now hes doing the same to SIG. Keep the phrase legal momentum in mind. In this version, Bridge City Officer Brittany Hilton tells her story of what she says happened when her P320 discharged as she was carrying it in her purse in what appears to be a SERPA holster (which has had its own problems, but thats another story). It has nothing to do with Glock. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. Dont quote the four rules of safety in your article when all the hotness in the gun world is appendix carry pointing something at an extremity and the photos you use showing front slide serrationsputting your hands fingers near the business end of the barrel, because press checks from the front is the way all the cool operator guys do it. Thats why NY demanded the NY Trigger be installed on Glocks before theyd buy them. Bineau added the review is looking at so-called ancillary equipment (meaning the holster and other items) as one element of that broader investigation. Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. Training and experience are not a talisman that magically prevents accidents. As a striker-fired pistol, the P320 is "under constant pressure to fire," Bagnell said. All those customers who paid $1600 now had a limited function paper weight. SIG Sauer, a German weapons maker with its U.S. headquarters in Newington, N.H., issued a statement Friday in response to a CBC News report earlier this week that revealed the Nov. 5, 2020, incident and the fact the weapon, the SIG P320, had been withdrawn from service while the military conducts an investigation. The second accidental shooting happened after police supervisors internally raised questions about the safety of the SIG Sauer P320. Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. Hammer guns have a half cock notch for a reason. Contacted late Friday, a spokeswoman for special forces said the investigation is still ongoing and would not confirm the companys findings. Bagnell also represented Virginia Sheriffs Deputy Marcie Vadnais who sued SIG when she said her P320 went off on its own when she was removing the weapon from her belt. Vadnais was featured in the Nightline version of ABCs report. On Nov. 5, 2020, a recently-purchased SIG Sauer P320 pistol went off unexpectedly at a training range in Dwyer Hill, outside of Ottawa. On the other hand, would we also condemn him for violating Rule 2 if the bullet had travelled through his outside wall, entered the adjacent house, and killed a resident thereof, or would we maybe, just maybe, place some blame on the manufacturer who created the pistol? Sig started out rough, but a lot of agencies have decided that their modular chassis system is the way of the future. The Hide Armory. Both companies, instead, took to pro-gun industry forums to offer a rebuttal, giving no opportunity to answer questions. But as Officer Hilton says, There is no way anything could have gotten into my purseinto the trigger guard and pulled that trigger., This ABC report includes an interview with Joshua Harrison, a firearms expert hired by the network to examine the P320s design and give his opinion of its safety. The latest of these suits was filed last week in US District Court in Massachusetts. You have entered an incorrect email address! Sigs suck and my Glock is awesome!. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. Fundamentally, the bits that the ambulance chaser claims are flawed function exactly the same way as a S&W M&P. Second, pardon us if were more than a little skeptical that the P320 in question or any other handgun fired when it was out of battery. The SIG P320, which has been manufactured since 2014, is known to go off without the trigger being pulled if it's dropped and lands on the ground at a certain angle. Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. Both versions of the ABC report included comments from Officer Hiltons attorney, Jeffrey Bagnell, who said, Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves. Its just that with hundreds of millions of firearms in the hands of more than one-third of the countrys population including a lot of cops some number of negligent discharges will inevitably happen. It SHOULD have more engagement width wise, but often doesnt due to things being rounded or out of square. Frankly, I think that ship is the best looking sci-fi ship design ever, with the Excelsior a very close second. . You simply may not PREFER one make to another, or may simply dislike another make, but were to the point in semi-auto pistol production history where amongst the big brands, the only real distinctions are preference. SIG P320s were just the start and the P365 isnt far behind. MIM strikers made in India and put into Sigs. Theres also an un-named Texas gun shop manager who says a P320 fired as he cleared the weapon, blowing off one of his fingers. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. All chasing that pot of gold at the end of litigation.. Not that big of a stretch when considering the lawyers beating the bushs for clients to add to the lawsuits, and the fact many of them will lose their jobs if its proven to NOT be the gun, but instead negligence on their part. That is exactly why all civilized countries have Government Agencies that monitor companies that have a callus disregard for human life and are only interested in the quick buck. 2. The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Quite frankly, a sizable number of the LEOs that go there, would benefit from a Gun Safety 101 class. Sig Sauer P220 Super Match. It has an unsafe takedown procedure that requires you to pull the trigger to get the slide off. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? In fact, I dont own ANY striker fired polymer pistol. If you want to find the lowest form of life on the planet interview any C.E.O. So the tally goes against the surrounding area, not against the gun free zone. Its interesting that ABC chose to leave that point out of one of their reports. Then either the gun somehow managed to magically clear both the broken tab and foreign body to continue to operate. Finger on the trigger and muzzle discipline are sometimes unheralded. Posts: 21156 | Registered: November 05, 2003. Third, Glock has had problems, too. Sometimes you dont get what you pay for but now SIG has bragging rights. On Thursday, M.D. In a straight up Glock vs. Sig battle, the United States Marines chose Sig, and that was AFTER watching the P320 perform for four years. Funny how that works. They did, however, note that when they were contacted by ABC, the company pointed out specific circumstances that were subsequently uncovered in the investigations of a number of these incidents. Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. The details are not out yet, but they use Glocks, and I will make a good bet that her trigger finger did the deed. I cant stand Glocks but SIG P320s are junk. In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. . Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, resulting in injury and his unit withdrawing the pistol from service. Im reading about a moron who wraps a loaded firearm in a cloth and stuff it in a gym bag, and other dumb behavior that tells me the weapon isnt the problem but the user. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. https://millsentertainment.smugmug.com/William-Shatner-The-Wrath-of-Khan Hilton has filed a $15 million lawsuit alleging the P320 has a serious design and manufacturing flaw. And the idea some random comment section P320 hater thinks theyre smarter & more knowledgeable than the Army, Navy, Airforce, Coast Guard and Marine Corp combined regarding military pistol selection is just freaking laughable! LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. 01:10. I would trust a hungry lion on the Serengeti plains of Africa more than I would a C.E.O. If it was so bad, why did the US Marines, who had the Glock, drop it in favor of the carry sized P320, the M18? Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. To give you an example of early self-propelled lawn mowers if you lost your grip on the handles the mower would not shut off and it would take off on its own right down the street all by itself. I dont own a Glock or a SIG and am not a fanboy of either. Maybe its a technical issue, maybe its a training issue. But it hardly indicts the P320 as a badly engineered weapon or that its worse than another brand. Asking for a friend. 35446 Views 56 Replies 41 Participants Last post by tirod, Sep 1, 2021. Whats this silly BS? and youve gotten this far reading our thread. Its difficult to believe thats a coincidence. But then Im not a federal LE flunky who cant keep my booger hook off the bang switch, either. Sig, take this firearm off the market, and recall. Upgrades are for things that didnt work right in the first place. While it seems that I have a preference for battle ships, The Romulans had Warbirds. First off, no joke on me. It seems safe to assume that while SIG is coming up fast on the outside, GLOCK is still most likely the reigning champ in terms of the firearms most often carried by law enforcement and other government agencies. After all, there are limits on complying with Rule 2 and even Rule 3, because a gun muzzle is ALWAYS covering something, somewhere, and ALWAYS knowing what lies beyondperhaps FAR beyonda possible target is an impossibility. Thats SIGs term for a recall. But it also has much worse quality control on the parts in my experience owning and working on both. The P320s and P365s were junk, plain and simple. First, keep in mind that allegations made in lawsuits are not statements of fact. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. Its hard to say yet but with anything follow the basic safety rules. The P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost . What I can say is that article reads like a hit piece on the individuals who may or may not of made mistakes with their firearms from someone who worships at the alter of sig. Its a novelty, its got issues! I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. The new Kirk does suck. If it were the guns, there would be thousands of cases involving citizensbut there arent. The safety WILL prevent the gun from firing with a trigger pull when activated, but it should never come to that. brakes, remember? The thing I hate is getting kicked around! Trying to categorically say Brand X is better than Brand Y! Being prosecuted and convicted of a third degree felony in Texas can lead to: Incarceration in a Texas state prison for a term of two years or up to 10 years. Canadian soldier. Have heard of no issues like the alleged gremlin caused spontaneous discharges of the P320 in other Sig models. Having it as the ONLY trigger pull the weapon has seems (to me) clearly dangerous. Anyway there was one good thing to come from those movies, The USS Vengeance. NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. And as far as Special Forces go, SF going to Glock has been documented as a bean counters solution to save money. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. While good firearms training and practices among law enforcement officers is certainly the case much of the time, weve seen far too many instances over the years of un-safe or downright dangerous practices by allegedly highly trained individuals to apply that kind of blanket endorsement to all cops or alphabet agency employees. Result: Sig P320 goes off when dropped and shoots people. This will include an alternate design that reduces the physical weight of the trigger, sear, and striker while additionally adding a mechanical disconnector. He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. TTAG talked to SIG Sauer about the P320 suits and the ABC reports. There was no holster involved. 00:03. I can say one thing for sure, the X on the side of the my is about is welcoming to me as grip zone was. Someone is going to read this thread and be bewildered. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. None of the current lawsuits appear to be in any way related to the now-fixed drop safety issue and most, if not all of the allegations seem to involve upgraded pistols or those produced after the drop safety problem was identified by SIG. The current allegations, then, are different, claiming that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. How many times does a pistol have to malfunction before you blame it? They mandate more discharges, with more property damage, more injuries, and more deaths. Id read that for TMP, they got NASA to help in the design of the refit Enterprise. People who had problems have been replacing them with Lightning Strike SS ones. . Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. He would have been booted after the first time, but being a cop comes with some special privileges. It sounds the same as arguing whether Captain Marvel could beat Superman up in a fist fight its pretty absurd and laughable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM Hey, Im glad theres somethings we agree on! Its just dumb enough to sound like the plot to a damned Disney film. While this incident occurred months ago, this erroneous media report is driven by multiple sources, including our competitors, and coincides with the imminent release of other Canadian military and law enforcement tenders, indicating the timing of its release is an attempt to improperly influence the procurements, the statement said. Happy with my old S&W revolvers, 3rd Gen S&W pistols,1911s and a slew of P226s. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. This is the goal of those who would disarm us at the Post Office, as we take little Yevgeniy or little Shaquina to school, as we fulfill our civic responsibilities as jurors to judge our peers, as we travel to and through less free jurisdictions. Sigs bid was low because they were still pissed after being beat by Beretta in cost. A fellow kept his DA revolver in the desk. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. Sig can burn for all I care. I wish nothing bad on anyone carrying regardless of brand. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. The Glock fails on both counts. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. The linkage isnt, but the way the striker leg and sear face mate up, the two materials being MIM castings, the small camming action, etc. I know off body carry is a recipe for disaster. A few Warbirds decloaking would make me very nervous if it wasnt sci-fi fantasy. The Glocks lack of a manual safety has caused untold thousands of needless cripplings and death. So are dumb(or arrogant) cops. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. I have been purchasing and using Sig firearms exclusively for over 40 years. The list is long proving gun manufactures were well aware of this problem now for 121 years yet they abandoned this when the Glock infested the gun market. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. The military is much smarter and no, the gun is not junk. No autographs, No self taken pictures. Not just police in US had issues with sig p320. Thats just myopic brand lust on parade. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. After the accident the unit returned to using the SIG P226 they had planned to replace with the P320. People of the Gun are probably familiar with the early problems the P320 had regarding drop safety. The one officer in the ABC story had it wrapped in a rag in his gym bag? Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. But were way past the days of major league, internationally known gunmakers turning out complete crap, selling it and the public living with it. They didnt have to, but did. Watching all these Glock fan boys drool over these lawsuits in their tribal brand-lust is like watching the talking heads on CNN announcing Trump lost the 2020 election. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! He points to it in the video. The settlement requires the gunmaker to reimburse owners of . L. LRRifleman . There was nothing wrong with the Glock action, it was a training issue. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. Sounds like these officers and others are attempting to cover their posteriors. Theres still the P938 extractors snapping they refuse to acknowledge. Liberal, Conservative. I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. Great job, this threat needed some levity! So I think it is unconscionable, given the number of incidents of this gun defectively discharging without a trigger pull, would necessitate that someone order it to be recalled and only SIG can do that.. Had a buddy, years ago, that was a deputy for Orange County in California. CBC News reached out to Sig Sauer and its Canadian distributor, M.D. This is this same company that couldnt build their own freaking rifles after multiple attempts (Sig SG550 series) when that rifle had been made in Switzerland for years without issue. 3. Thats deflecting from the real issue. I dont own a P320. I have never had to have one serviced or replaced. Good thing you werent serious, thatd be terr..uh.oops. They habitually use their customers as the product testers by selling what are essentially prototypes while quietly implementing rolling revisions. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer Im more of a DS9 guy. This subject has two prongs; One is the negligence of those who have shot themselves with 320s through violations of Rule 2, the other the possible mechanical design failing of the gun. The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. Inside the gun, a metal piece called the sear should keep the weapon from firing until the trigger is pulled. The pictures on the internet were enough to scare the shit out of you especially his wound in the thigh. The weapons are currently on the shelf and the soldiers have returned to using their older model SIG P226s. By hoping Sig gets taken down for the P320, theyre actually setting up their own pet brand to be the next on the chopping block. As they should. It offers the quality and reliability of Sig Sauer, with a tried and true striker system and ingenious features that make it a novel gun. It somehow moved to the hinges of the desk. Where is this lightning striking twice? NO, SIG has a problem that they would rather fight in court. It was at that point that I knew the gun had a design flaw. He wanted to see how accurate the gun was, especially after the customer got it back after the voluntary upgrade. I think making guns easy to shoot has gone too far. Well I jumped in bed with ma and pa , told them that the devil was in Arkansas. They admitted their problem and fixed it. Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle. They function as commanded every time. Trigger is lighter than the Glock, it took years of aggressive training to reach the point of acceptable discharges with the Glock. Ever since the internet went mainstream I have read about the Sigs decline. It nicely describes what has to happen in a striker-fired P320 for an un-commanded discharge to happen as the plaintiffs have claimed. Manual safeties on pistols, hammer and striker fired systems were found necessary as far back as 1900. Even if it was an issue with the sear interface, there is still a firing pin safety that will not move unless the trigger is held firmly to the rear. I am also very much a DS9 fan, best series overall. You need a lead that can be the lightening rod and not be afraid to make an ass of themselvesit give the watcher permission to take it seriously. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/dea-agent-lee-paige-still-wont-go-away/. The sear cams it back a teeny bit. That a pistol will be carried in a way it shouldnt (say, in a gym bag or a purse). The Milwaukee police department has had 3 incidents of the Sig discharging while being in a holster sitting in a patrol car in 2023. TAMPA, Fla., July 27, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- A 30-year veteran law enforcement officer with the Tampa Police Department (TPD) today filed a lawsuit against Sig Sauer, Inc., the maker of his. And then theres Gunter Walker, a civilian, who says his P320 fired on its ownwhen he placed the weapon down on his nightstand, shooting him through the palm of his left hand.. Not sure why it wont let me reply to you, but Ill reply to myself in the hope youll get it. With the 320, the striker is in full-cock position, and held there through the operation of the trigger sear and the positive striker-blocking safety. The suit mirrors lawsuits filed across the country involving the semi-automatic gun known as the P320. . If these same folks were around in the 80s and got their way, no one today would know what a Glock was. And the fact they used real models, and big ones, gives the ships a real sense of heft, mass, movement and solidity that the garbage CGI ships of the new movies just cannot remotely compete with. If the military was going to go cheap then they should have thrown Taurus into the mix. One hell of a conspiracy. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. The second, longer version of the ABC story again included comments from Joshua Harrison, the consultant ABC hired to independently assess the P320. That wont last for long, the P320 (M17 AND M18) are already failing in the field. No you haters are not smarter than the US military, who tested the P320 far more than your favorite YouTuber ever did. Remember the highly trained FBI officer whose gun went off in a nightclub? Glocks have gone off when people attempted to holster them and after they have holstered them, some times way later after holstering them like the fellow that got into his pickup truck. Second, your claim that the military is dumping because theyre problematic? The VIP screening with the meet and greet was like $600. Sig Sauer's P320 is widely used by police departments across the country, and is a big seller in the civilian market, with about half a million sold nationwide. They suck and Im awesome!, 2. Covid ruined that gravy train for him but hes still doing the conventions. They didnt see a problem at all and in fact, saw it as an upgrade over Glock. Grow up, you aint all that! TTAG talked to Bagnell, who told us that he wants it to be known that he is not anti-gun and doesnt want to see more gun control laws in this country. SIG doesnt so you get killed by a punk with a Hi Point. Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. ABCs own hired consultant, who appears to have no dog in these fights, asserted that he could find no reasonable explanation for these claims and that he considers the upgraded P320 pistols safe for sale to law enforcement and the public. People who know how to handle guns prudently and safely. And those are exactly the kinds of plaintiffs who happen to make up the vast majority of the lawsuits filed against SIG. With the redesign, you would have to implement a LOT of force to move the trigger backwards. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. For the moron Neanderthals of the Far Right who will scream its the operators fault and we do not give a shit about marketing more safer designed weapons, if such idiotic polices were followed for other consumer goods today we would not have safety glass, anti-lock breaks, back up safeties, child proof medicine caps and chemical bottles, back up cameras, kick back muzzles on chain saws and the list goes on and on. . Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report.
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